14 December 2002. Transcript purchased for $60 from Exemplaris.com.
List of daily transcripts: http://cryptome.sabotage.org/usa-v-elcom-dt.htm
1
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
3 SAN JOSE DIVISION
4
UNITED STATES OF ) CR-01-20138-RMW
5 AMERICA, )
)
6 Plaintiff, )
) San Jose, California
7 vs. ) December 4, 2002
) DIAZ CROSS-EXAM
8 ELCOM LTD., et al., )
)
9 Defendants. )
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _)
10
PARTIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
11 BEFORE THE HONORABLE RONALD M. WHYTE
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
12
A P P E A R A N C E S:
13
For the United States United States Attorney's
14 of America: Office
By: SCOTT H. FREWING,
15 AUSA
280 South First Street
16 Room 371
San Jose, CA 95113
17
For the Defendants: Duane Morris
18 By: JOSEPH M. BURTON, ESQ
GREGORY G. ISKANDER, ESQ
19 Spear Tower
One Market Street
20 Suite 2000
San Francisco, CA 94105
21
22
23
24 Court Reporter: PETER TORREANO, CSR
License Number 7623
25
2
1 INDEX OF WITNESSES
2 GOVERNMENT'S WITNESSES
3 THOMAS DIAZ
4 Resumed Cross-Examination P. 3
by Burton
5
INDEX OF EXHIBITS
6
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBITS MARKED ADMITTED
7 147 P. 5
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10
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23
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25
3
1 San Jose, California December 4, 2002
2 PARTIAL PROCEEDINGS
3 THE COURT: Good morning, everyone.
4 You can be a little more lively.
5 Mr. Frewing, are you ready to continue?
6 Excuse me. Mr. Burton, I guess.
7 MR. BURTON: I am, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. BURTON: I think that Mr. -- we were
10 going to continue with Mr. Diaz.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Diaz, right.
12 Good morning.
13 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
14 THE COURT: Are you all set?
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
16 THE COURT: Okay. You're obviously still
17 under oath.
18 THE WITNESS: All right.
19 RESUMED CROSS-EXAMINATION
20 BY MR. BURTON:
21 Q Good morning, Mr. Diaz.
22 A Good morning.
23 Q One of the things that I believe you testified
24 that you're concerned about, Adobe's concerned
25 about with digital eBooks -- digital eBooks --
4
1 eBooks is that if the encryption is somehow broken
2 someone could make copies of the eBook and
3 distribute that eBook; correct?
4 A That's -- that's right.
5 Q I mean, you could have a situation where you
6 have hundreds, thousands or more of illicit copies
7 distributed and available; correct?
8 A That was our concern.
9 Q And that remains a concern?
10 A It remains a concern.
11 Q Okay. Now, in the case of the Elcomsoft
12 product, once you learned that it came out, did you
13 make any effort to determine whether or not there
14 were illicit copies circulating of eBooks which are
15 under the Adobe PDF format?
16 A I did.
17 Q Okay. And let me show you -- let me show you
18 what I marked for identification as Defense Exhibit
19 147 and ask you if you recognize it.
20 A Yes. This is an e-mail message that I sent to
21 two of our customers who provide eBook fulfillment,
22 Malcolm Lockhart and Phil Clark.
23 Q All right. So it's a document you prepared
24 and you sent; correct?
25 A I did.
5
1 MR. BURTON: Your Honor, I would move
2 that into evidence as Defense 147.
3 MR. BURTON: No objection.
4 THE COURT: All right. 147 is admitted.
5 (Whereupon, Defendant's Exhibit Number
6 147, previously marked for
7 identification, was admitted into
8 evidence.)
9 BY MR. BURTON:
10 Q I'm just going to put it on the screen so the
11 jury can see it. We're just going to talk about it
12 just very briefly.
13 Now, in there there's a phrase here that
14 says: "We are continuing hacked-file surveillance
15 and I should have some preliminary
16 results tomorrow."
17 Do you see that?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Can you explain to the jury what you mean by
20 that.
21 A Yes. I hired two companies, Reciprocal
22 Incorporated and a company called BayTSP, to
23 conduct surveillance on the Web for unencrypted
24 copies of several eBooks. The unencrypted eBook
25 files were provided to me -- or permission was
6
1 provided to me to do that by the publishers of the
2 books.
3 Q Okay. And these are eBooks you assumed that
4 if somehow the Elcomsoft product were used it might
5 be used to produce illicit copies of those?
6 A Not exactly. I asked the publishers to
7 contribute one or two titles apiece of what they
8 believed were some of their most popular ones. So
9 it was something of a spot check to see if popular
10 eBooks that were selling well were being trafficked
11 on the Web in an unencrypted form.
12 Q Did you find that that was the case?
13 A We didn't find any conclusive evidence that
14 that was the case. We found a few out there, but
15 the publishers of the books presented me with other
16 evidence that suggested that they might have leaked
17 from other causes than the Elcomsoft tool.
18 Q To present have you or Adobe, if you know,
19 have you found any indication that the Elcomsoft
20 product was used to make illicit copies of books?
21 A Not to my knowledge.
22 Q Now, remember yesterday we talked about the
23 situation with Riding the Bullet; correct?
24 A Right.
25 Q Now, in that situation the encryption of that
7
1 eBook was broken; correct?
2 A It was.
3 Q Okay. And in that case were illicit copies of
4 that book Riding the Bullet out on the Internet?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And, in fact, there were a lot?
7 A Enough so that it wasn't necessary for us to
8 conduct surveillance.
9 Q You knew it?
10 A Yes.
11 Q I mean, to be fair, and I know you don't know
12 the numbers, but there were significant illicit
13 copies that were available on the Internet at the
14 time of that breach; correct?
15 A Yes, that's right.
16 Q All right. Now, yesterday we talked about
17 this concept of permissions that a creator of a
18 document or an eBook in this instance can have or
19 can place on the eBook. Do you remember that? We
20 had a lot of discussion about that.
21 A Yes.
22 Q And those permissions include the ability, for
23 example, to copy a page or more than a page or
24 print, to lend the book, et cetera; correct?
25 A That's right.
8
1 Q Now, if I were to go and purchase an eBook on
2 the Web, do I know what permissions are on that
3 book prior to the time that I purchase it?
4 A Not necessarily. Some -- some web retailers
5 tell you what the permissions are and some don't.
6 Q Okay. Do you know what the general practice
7 is?
8 THE COURT: Assuming there is one?
9 MR. BURTON: Well, let me rephrase it.
10 BY MR. BURTON:
11 Q Are you aware of whether telling you what the
12 permissions is is or not telling you is a more
13 prevalent practice?
14 A I'm not. Where I buy my books the retailer
15 does tell you.
16 Q And where is that, by the way?
17 A Powells.com.
18 Q Do you know what the practice is with respect
19 to Amazon.com?
20 A I don't know.
21 Q Do you know what the practice is with respect
22 to Barnes & Noble?
23 A I believe that Barnes & Noble does not say
24 what the permissions are before you buy.
25 Q And so if I were, for example, at Barnes &
9
1 Noble and I were to buy the book, I -- when is the
2 first time I would know what I could do with that
3 book?
4 A If I remember Barnes & Noble's practices
5 correctly, you would know that after you bought the
6 book and when you were reading it inside the eBook
7 reader.
8 Q Okay. After I paid for it and I'd open it up.
9 That's when I would know what I could do with it;
10 correct?
11 A That's right.
12 Q All right. Now, with respect to the issue of
13 permissions again, those are features which are put
14 on to I guess the word is "protect" the rights of
15 the creator of the document; correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. Now, does the Adobe software have any
18 features which -- which are -- does it have any
19 features which would protect any of the user's
20 rights?
21 A I'm not sure I understand the question.
22 Q Do you not understand the term "user rights"?
23 A Well, I understand what those two words mean,
24 but I don't understand how to answer the question.
25 Q All right.
10
1 A What's an example of a user's right?
2 Q Let me answer the questions -- or ask the
3 questions. I could answer them, but that wouldn't
4 be fair. So let me ask the questions.
5 I take it from that the concept of user
6 right is not something you understand when I use
7 that term?
8 A I'd just like a more specific question.
9 Q Okay. Well, let me ask this question: My
10 ability to -- well, let's do this.
11 I showed you Exhibit 145 yesterday which
12 is the PDF document, the large PDF document; right?
13 And, by the way, if you open it, that book has with
14 it a CD ROM, does it not?
15 A Yes, it does.
16 Q And that CD ROM has the entire text of the
17 book?
18 A That's right.
19 Q Okay. And I don't know whether you know. Is
20 that CD ROM protected?
21 A I actually don't know.
22 Q All right. Now, with respect to this book, if
23 I want to take that book after I bought it and give
24 it to Mr. Frewing to allow him to use it, that's my
25 right to do, is it not?
11
1 A Yes. As I understand it, that's part of the
2 US copyright law, the first sale principle.
3 Q Okay. I could do that. Now, if I got that
4 book in digital format, could I do that?
5 A Actually, that depends on whether the
6 publisher has enabled the give right. So if that's
7 an example of a user right, then there is one in
8 the system.
9 Q But in the case of the eBook whether I can do
10 that or not depends on whether the publisher allows
11 it?
12 A That's correct.
13 Q Is that right?
14 A Yes.
15 Q But in the case of the p-book that's in front
16 of you I do that, as you understand it, because I
17 have a right under copyright law to do that?
18 A That is right.
19 Q And so that's a difference, is it not, between
20 the rights that a user has with an eBook versus the
21 rights he has with a p-book?
22 MR. FREWING: Your Honor, I would object.
23 This calls for a legal conclusion.
24 THE COURT: He can ask the question as to
25 whether that can be done. Whether or not that's a
12
1 legal right is a different issue. You can ask him
2 whether or not that can be done with a p-book as
3 you put it and not done with an eBook.
4 MR. BURTON: All right.
5 THE COURT: But as far as whether legally
6 that's permissible or not, that's a different
7 issue.
8 BY MR. BURTON:
9 Q So it's clear that it cannot be done without
10 the permission of the publisher; correct?
11 A Yes. That was true at the time of the
12 Elcomsoft event in any case.
13 Q Okay. Now, would it be possible to make
14 software such that you could do precisely the same
15 thing?
16 A Not precisely, of course, but, yes, it would
17 be possible to remove that right from the system
18 and make all books lendable or all books givable.
19 Q Okay. Now, let's take another example, if I
20 could. If I had that book, if I'm a teacher in a
21 public school or any school and I want to -- and I
22 take a chapter of that book and make a copy of a
23 chapter of that book with the full complete chapter
24 with appropriate attribution -- you understand what
25 I mean when I say that?
13
1 A Yes, I do.
2 Q And so the jury understands that means when I
3 copy it I make it clear that it's a book published
4 by Adobe and the author is whoever it is; correct?
5 A I understood what "attribution" means.
6 Q Well, but I want to make sure the jury
7 understands.
8 A That's what "attribution" means.
9 Q So as I explained it, that's essentially
10 correct, my explanation of "attribution"?
11 A Yes.
12 Q So if I'm a teacher and I make a copy of a
13 chapter of that book with appropriate attribution
14 because I want to give it to my students in class
15 to do a project, is it your understanding that I
16 can do that?
17 A No.
18 MR. FREWING: Objection. Vague as to
19 whether practical or legal.
20 THE COURT: Sustained. I agree. You can
21 ask him whether practically that can be done.
22 Whether that's legal or not, it's not within this
23 witness's expertise to tell us.
24 BY MR. BURTON:
25 Q Well, you understand that I could do that
14
1 practically; correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q I could do it as a practical --
4 A Run a Xerox machine and make your copies,
5 right.
6 Q Okay. Now, with respect to that same book in
7 eBook format, could I do it as a practical matter?
8 A Again it depends on whether the publisher has
9 enabled certain permissions.
10 Q Now, let me ask this question: Are you aware
11 of practical reasons that a legitimate owner of an
12 eBook might want to change the permissions on that
13 eBook?
14 A Yes, I am.
15 Q What might be some practical reasons that a
16 legitimate, legitimate owner now, might want to
17 change permissions on an eBook?
18 A Might want to copy the book to another
19 computer they owned without having to call customer
20 service.
21 Q Okay. Any others that you can think of?
22 A I could speculate more and more, but that's
23 one that comes immediately to mind.
24 Q Okay. Lending that we just talked about,
25 that's an example; yes?
15
1 A Yes.
2 Q That's a practical reason; yes?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Frankly -- or not frankly, but actually the
5 example we talked about in terms of a schoolteacher
6 or a teacher, that's a practical reason; yes?
7 A Well, schoolteachers might not --
8 schoolteachers might have to get the publisher's
9 permission to do what you suggested.
10 Q Okay. How about -- all right -- as an
11 individual for a research project; is that a
12 practical reason?
13 A A research project?
14 Q Uh-huh.
15 A I don't understand what you mean.
16 Q A student.
17 A What would the student be -- you just said
18 research project.
19 Q Doing a research project.
20 A I can't answer. I guess I don't understand
21 what the student would be doing.
22 Q Can't answer? Okay. That's fine.
23 How about making -- can you make notes
24 or -- on an eBook?
25 A Yes, in our system we can.
16
1 Q Does that require permissions or not?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay. How about with respect to writing or
4 changing, marking out, crossing anything in an
5 eBook, the words that are on the page?
6 A You can't alter the text.
7 Q You can't alter the text?
8 A That's right.
9 MR. BURTON: Okay. Your Honor, may we
10 approach the bench?
11 THE COURT: Sure.
12 (Whereupon, the following conference was
13 held at side-bar, out of the hearing of the jury:)
14 MR. BURTON: Your Honor, I think that I
15 have -- or I should have the right to ask this
16 witness about his knowledge, his own understanding
17 of the fair use issue regarding digital books.
18 This is what I referred to as the elephant in the
19 room.
20 There's an ongoing debate over this, over
21 the extent to which the users have the rights for
22 the books that they initially purchase. It seems
23 to me that the existence of that debate is a
24 question which goes to the good faith defense. If
25 the Defendant is -- we're aware of that. It's
17
1 certainly something that could inform their own
2 actors. Even if they are not aware of it it is
3 something that goes to the reasonableness of an
4 assertion that they make that that is why they did
5 what they did.
6 I mean, we don't have to ask for a legal
7 opinion, but the existence of that debate and the
8 issue seems to be a reasonable issue.
9 MR. FREWING: First of all, it's not a
10 legal matter. His understanding of the law in this
11 area isn't relevant at all and his understanding of
12 whether the dispute exists doesn't bear on whether
13 the Defendants knew about it.
14 THE COURT: I agree with the latter at
15 least. It seems to me that the only issue that
16 comes in on this is the willfulness issue and
17 that's really your client's state of mind. The
18 fact that he may know or understand the debate
19 about fair use or understand fair use doesn't have
20 anything to do with whether your clients
21 understand.
22 MR. BURTON: But it has to do with the
23 reasonableness of any belief that they had, a good
24 faith belief they have on the reasonableness of it
25 that certain evidence of -- if all the clients
18
1 assert is "I believe that," okay. That's fine.
2 The jury can believe it or disbelieve it.
3 But certainly the question of whether or
4 not what was out there was some issue about --
5 about fair use or what the limits, et cetera, were
6 goes to the question of the reasonableness of that.
7 And the jury can determine whether -- whether they
8 believe it or not. I mean, the jury could
9 determine, yeah, there was an issue that was out
10 there, but I don't believe these Defendants relied
11 on it or did anything for it.
12 They have a totally free mind, but they
13 can also make the opposite conclusion. They could
14 say look, there was a debate. These clients --
15 when these clients decided that they did their acts
16 because they believed a certain thing was within
17 fair use, the jury can say that seems reasonable to
18 me or the jury can say no, it doesn't seem
19 reasonable to me.
20 But it seems to me that it goes to
21 that -- that question and willfulness is an issue,
22 but fair use is -- it's not a defense, but fair use
23 is a counter, if you will, to willfulness and the
24 reasonableness of that, of that belief seems to me
25 to be at issue.
19
1 MR. FREWING: I don't think it bears on
2 whether or not Defendants were even aware of it,
3 whether Defendants had in their mind and on top of
4 that I think it exceeds the scope of direct and we
5 haven't talked about fair use at all and we haven't
6 talked about his understanding of disputes in the
7 industry even on direct.
8 THE COURT: I agree with Mr. Frewing at
9 this point. Maybe if your clients testify, if they
10 do, maybe there will be some argument that the
11 existence of a dispute out there would be relevant,
12 but at this point I think Mr. Frewing is right. I
13 don't think that -- what this individual's
14 knowledge of a dispute has to do with the
15 Defendant's knowledge and I don't think we need to
16 get into anything he thought. It's a side issue.
17 MR. BURTON: It's basically that it's
18 arising again. The reason I'd like to avoid it is
19 the reason to call him back if we needed to do
20 that. That's why I'm trying to avoid it
21 particularly since he's out of state. He's from
22 Massachusetts.
23 THE COURT: He hasn't been designated as
24 an expert, has he?
25 MR. BURTON: But this is not an expert
20
1 issue. This is an issue of not legally whether or
2 not --
3 THE COURT: I understand your issue is
4 that there was out there some discussion about --
5 MR. BURTON: Absolutely.
6 THE COURT: -- fair use.
7 MR. BURTON: There's a huge discussion
8 about it.
9 THE COURT: I know. I'm totally aware of
10 that.
11 MR. FREWING: I would suspect that
12 dispute arose after July 15th, 2001 in prominence.
13 MR. BURTON: Absolutely.
14 THE COURT: At this point I'm going to
15 sustain the objection and we can revisit it later.
16 MR. BURTON: Very well.
17 (Whereupon, the following proceedings
18 were held in open court in the presence of the
19 jury:)
20 THE COURT: All right. You may continue.
21 MR. BURTON: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you.
22 BY MR. BURTON:
23 Q All right. If I could at the risk of moving
24 the chart out here so you can see it and we can
25 make sure the jury can see it. That's the
21
1 important thing.
2 Can you see it?
3 THE COURT: Don't worry about me. Worry
4 about the jury first.
5 BY MR. BURTON:
6 Q Can you see that reasonably well? I'm not
7 going to do anything elaborate.
8 A Yes.
9 Q When we were talking about the -- yesterday --
10 strike the question. Let me do this first.
11 Just for anybody that can't read my
12 writing what I put on here on the top, if you can
13 see it, "document encryption, security,
14 permission."
15 Do you see that?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. Now, in the Adobe PDF file system
18 encryption is directly related to the security of a
19 PDF file, a document; is that correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And encryption is directly related to the
22 existence or non-existence of permissions on the
23 document; is that right?
24 A That's right.
25 Q Okay. And that's why I think it -- and when
22
1 we talk about, here about encryption we're talking
2 about the document being encrypted using what's
3 known as a key; correct?
4 A That's right.
5 Q An encryption key?
6 A That's right.
7 Q All right. And again not to be -- not to get
8 too technical. In order to decrypt the document
9 you need access to that key or actually its
10 opposite?
11 A Yes, that's right.
12 Q Correct?
13 A That's correct.
14 Q It's the key. If you have the key, if a
15 document is encrypted and you have the key, then
16 you can decrypt it; correct?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q And if it's decrypted, then it's, as we
19 discussed yesterday, that document then is in a
20 plain PDF format and you can do anything with that
21 plain PDF format?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q All right. So if I -- in order to enforce --
24 or not enforce, but to have the permissions on an
25 eBook it has to be encrypted; yes?
23
1 A I think it's more correct to say what you
2 first said which is that in order to enforce
3 them -- the permissions can still be in the file,
4 but if the file weren't encrypted they could be
5 changed by the user.
6 Q All right. Well, let me understand this and
7 see if I'm right. And I don't want to get too --
8 am I correct in understanding that when you have an
9 encrypted document within the PDF file there's
10 something that's called an encryption dictionary?
11 A That's right.
12 Q Correct?
13 And when there is an encryption
14 dictionary that means that that document is
15 encrypted; correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Okay. And it's within that encryption
18 dictionary, within it which is a computer file that
19 there are certain bits, computer bits that indicate
20 the various permissions; correct?
21 A That's true with the standard handler.
22 Q All right. Right now I just want to talk
23 about the standard handler.
24 So the permission bits, if you will, are
25 within that encryption dictionary?
24
1 A That's right.
2 Q So no encryption dictionary, no permissions;
3 correct?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. And no encryption dictionary, the
6 document is not encrypted?
7 A Yes.
8 Q All right. So if someone wanted to change or
9 remove these permissions without the permission of
10 the creator, the way -- one way they would have to
11 do it or the way they would have to do it is to be
12 able to decrypt the file; correct?
13 A That's right.
14 Q Okay. And a principal way to decrypt a file
15 is to determine what the encryption key is;
16 correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And once you determine that -- once you have
19 the encryption keys, then you can decrypt the file
20 and remove the permissions and do whatever you want
21 to?
22 A That's right.
23 Q Correct?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And so, as you indicated once, the goal is to
25
1 find that decryption or find that encryption key;
2 correct?
3 A Yes. In your scenario, that's correct.
4 Q And, in fact, with the AEBPR program you
5 indicated from the review that you did of it that
6 the goal of the program was to find the encryption
7 key.
8 Now, I know we're not talking about
9 standard handler, but with the eBook Reader the
10 goal was to find the encryption key; correct?
11 A Yes, that's right.
12 Q Okay. Now, it's true that with the eBook
13 Reader where that key is located is different than
14 with the standard reader; correct?
15 A And where the permissions are located is also
16 different.
17 Q And where the permissions are located?
18 A But I don't think that's an important detail
19 in this scenario.
20 Q But it's different?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And in this case the AEBPR program, as you
23 understood it, what it was trying to do was to find
24 that encryption key to use that encryption key to
25 decrypt the document?
26
1 A Yes. It does two things. First, it -- it
2 appears to contain a stored copy of a key that --
3 of a secondary key that was removed from our
4 program and then it uses that key to find the key
5 on your diagram for any particular book.
6 Q Okay. And let me, if I can. I'll just do it
7 a little bit and see if we can understand it. I
8 want to try and make it as reasonably simple as I
9 can.
10 As I understand the way the eBook Reader
11 works is that an eBook really consists of two
12 parts?
13 A That's right.
14 Q It consists of the text which is encrypted;
15 correct?
16 A Right.
17 Q And it also consists of something that's
18 called a voucher?
19 A That's right.
20 Q Which contains within that voucher the
21 encryption key for that encrypted text; correct?
22 A That's correct.
23 Q Okay.
24 A That key is also encrypted.
25 Q Well, I'm going to get to that, but at least
27
1 those two parts are correct; right? We've got the
2 text which is encrypted?
3 A So that's a PDF file.
4 Q This is for -- this is for eBook Reader?
5 A Yeah.
6 Q All right. Which uses the PDF file. We've
7 got the text encrypted and then we have a voucher
8 which has in it the encryption key and it's got
9 permissions in it?
10 A It does.
11 Q Is that what I heard?
12 A And it has what are called meta data. That's
13 just a word that comprises things like the title of
14 the book.
15 Q Okay.
16 A So...
17 Q And as I understood your earlier testimony,
18 what the program did -- well, now let's do this:
19 This encryption key within the voucher, all of this
20 data information is itself encrypted?
21 A Actually, just the encryption key is.
22 Q Just the encryption key? So let's just do
23 that. The encryption key is itself encrypted. I'm
24 sure I spelled it wrong, but that's okay.
25 All right. It's encrypted. And the key
28
1 for this encryption, okay, is on the computer;
2 correct?
3 A Yes.
4 Q It's on the person who buys the eBook on
5 that -- on their computer is the key for this
6 encrypted encryption key; yes?
7 A Yes. Each -- each computer -- each individual
8 computer has a different key.
9 Q Okay. But let's just say me, I buy --
10 A So there isn't just one.
11 Q All right. That's fine. That's fair.
12 I buy a book. The book in front of you,
13 I buy it in digital format. On my computer is a
14 key and I think that's called a private key?
15 A It is.
16 Q Okay. Is a private key which would allow me
17 to decrypt the encryption key which once I get this
18 encryption key I can use that to decrypt the text.
19 That's the way -- essentially that's the way it
20 works; correct?
21 A Yes, absolutely.
22 Q And so again it's important that I get this
23 encryption key; correct?
24 A Yeah.
25 Q Because if I don't get this encryption key I
29
1 can't change the text -- I can't get access to the
2 text and I take it also that I can't change the
3 permissions?
4 A Right.
5 Q Right? I have to have this encryption key.
6 That's the key, as it were?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Yes. All right.
9 Now, you were -- you had, I believe, some
10 familiarity with the Elcomsoft program called the
11 Advanced PDF Password Recovery program?
12 A As I said yesterday, I'd heard of a program in
13 an e-mail conversation I had in January of 2001.
14 Q Okay. And -- but you don't have any knowledge
15 of how it works?
16 A Nothing precise.
17 Q Okay. Do you know if one of the things it
18 does in order to work is to find the encryption key
19 for documents in the standard format?
20 A Well, in the standard handler there's more
21 than one possible encryption key, but if it's a
22 recovery program it would -- by just the name it
23 would be finding a key.
24 Q One of its functions is to find one of, if
25 there are more than one, the encryption keys to
30
1 decrypt the document; correct?
2 A One of the passwords. Passwords and
3 encryption keys in that system are one and the
4 same.
5 Q All right. Well, let's use mine. You said
6 they are saying. I want to use the term
7 "encryption key."
8 A Fine.
9 Q One of the things it does is to find the
10 encryption key; correct?
11 A Well, presumably because that's what it's
12 named and that's what it's sold to do.
13 MR. BURTON: Okay. I think that's all I
14 have, Your Honor.
15 ---oOo---
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